Monday, February 8, 2010

I beleive Joseph Smith has many specific false prophecies. Any Mormons want to discuss it?

I am not being rude, but interested in your response. I was talking, at lunch, with a couple people about these prophecies and were curious to how you would respond.


Also, don't tell me to see www.lds.org I did and they do not respond.I beleive Joseph Smith has many specific false prophecies. Any Mormons want to discuss it?
discuss away.....


EDIT: First I think you need to understand the LDS view of prophecy - we believe that prophecy can have conditions. The Bible is clear that prophecy can be conditional and that fulfillment can sometimes depend on the actions of human beings. God's purpose is to bless mankind, not to be rigidly ';correct'; about everything. Immpending prophetic doom, for example, can be avoided by human repentance.





Also, I believe that it is obvious that prophetic spirit is not bound by the same time constraints this earth is. As a result, time can be tricky. This too is indicated in the bible.





I've tried to keep it as consice as possible ----OK - so-


-The war would begin with South Carolina. true


-It would cause the death and misery of many. true


-The Southern States would be against the Northern States. true


-The Southern States would call upon other nations for assistance, ';even upon the nation of Great Britain';. Great Britain would call upon other nations for assistance. (they urged France to help) true


-War would eventually be poured out upon all nations. true





Point is, in 1832 Joseph Smith made a prophecy on war that included a reference to the United States Civil War. Following the specific reference that the Northern States would be divided against the Southern States, Joseph predicted, ';And the time will come that war will be poured out upon all nations beginning at this place';. Notice it say that ';war'; will be pured out - not ';the'; civil war of the US.








Next the '56 year' prophecy


Again, (contingency being the operative word) twenty-six hundred years ago, the prophet Jeremiah established an important ground rule for prophecy. He pointed out that God's promises sometimes depended on the righteousness or wickedness of that people or nation. Jeremiah said that if God promised to establish a people and they became wicked, he would revoke that promise.(Jeremiah 18:6鈥?0)





So, Jonah was not a false prophet when he promised that Nineveh would be destroyed in forty days (see Jonah 3:4) because the Ninevites repented and the city was not destroyed. Note that Joseph Smith sent several reminders to the Saints in Missouri warning them that their conduct was going to bring the judgments of God upon them. In a letter written in 1833, Joseph Smith warned, ';I say to you (and what I say to you I say to all,) hear the warning voice of God, lest Zion fall, and the Lord sware in His wrath the inhabitants of Zion shall not enter into His rest.'; What happened? The Mormons in Missouri did not repent, and the promise to establish them was revoked. (D%26amp;C 105:2鈥?)





EDIT 2: The temple in Missouri is governed by the same principle as the 56 year prophecy - there was an obedience contingency that was not fulfilled. This is not specifically a prophecy, but more of a commandment (Joseph Smith termed it ';counsel';), which was not obeyed. We cannot expect that every time someone - including Latter-day Saints - refuses to obey the Lord's instructions, that it constitutes a failed prophecy. I think this is a good link on how the LDS view prophets -


http://www.fairlds.org/Bible/Nature_of_P鈥?/a>I beleive Joseph Smith has many specific false prophecies. Any Mormons want to discuss it?
I'm not really sure what prophecies you speak of. I am aware of one claim (according to many past LDS Mormon prophets that the ';Kingdom of God'; will be reestablished somewhere in Missouri (Independence, Missouri). Interestingly, the church doesn't even own the land where this reestablishment is meant to take place and likely never will since it is being guarded closely by a splinter LDS group.
Discuss, yes. Argue, no. And www.lds.org is reliable and should have all the answers you could ever need.
You want response? Have the missionaries come to your home. You can request them on www.lds.org.
What prophecies?
Please provide specific examples so that way the truth can come to light
I disagree. What prophecies of Joseph Smith's were false prophecies?





EDIT: Joseph Smith prophesied, accurately, the civil war, and even which state would start the secessionist movement...and you're concerned about the semantics of whether all nations would join in the civil war or just be pulled into a period of general warfare (which is certainly true, I don't know of any countries that have been spared war since that prophecy and now)? This seems fairly weak, given the fact that Joseph prophesied the civil war!





EDIT 2: What are the exact wording of Joseph's prophecy here? From what I have read, it hinged on Joseph living to a specific age, sort of an ';if...then'; thing. Again, I'm not seeing a false prophecy here.
How could we discuss these issues with you if you do not mention what they are. Perhaps it was when he said that God and Jesus Christ are separate beings, because he saw them. If they aren't separate, then that makes them liars, and they are surely not that. Why would Christ Pray to himself? Why would Steven and Peter look into heaven and see 2 distinct beings. Why would God the Father attend his own baptism and send down the third member in the form of a dove.





Why would Christ say ';Father forgive them for they know not what they do'; if he were the father also. How could he sit on his own right hand? Why wouldn't he know when he was returning, when he answered '; Not even the angels, but only the father knows.';





Why would he say he was greater than himself, and don't call me good, only the Father is good. I could go on.





Then why would our Father send prophets on the world all during every time period except after the death of Christ?





Why is a restoration of all things predicted in the bible?





How is the gospel going to be taught to every Nation, tongue and people before his 2nd coming (LDS is the only church that has 50,000 Missionaries throughout the world at any given time teaching about Christ)





Why is the LDS church the only church that has all the offices of the Priesthood mentioned in the new Testament.





Why is the LDS church the only one that Baptises and confirms receiving the holy Ghost by the laying on of hands as demonstrated many times in the new Testament?





Why is the LDS church the only church that has unpaid ministry as Christs Church. Paul had to make tents a few times so he could live.





Peter and Paul ordained Bishops and elders (unpaid) to run the churches they organized. The LDS Church ordains Bishops and Elders (unpaid) to run the branches and locations that are organized.





Since you did not say what you disagreed with. The above are only a few of the issues that make the Gospel that Jesus Christ himsef used Joseph Smith, just like the Prophets of old to restore the church.





Sure he said some things as a man. So did the prophets of old. Pie is not 3. The earth wasn't flat. Paul was against marriage.





And the Missouri Answerer. The Church does own a lot of land, not the Temple area yet, but the Israelites did not own the land they were to inherit either, or do you recall.





Adam will come back to Adam-ondi-ohman, and hold a conference with the 144,000,000 High Priests that represent every one of the 12 tribes. The church does own that land. It is about 60 Miles from Independence MIssouri.





The answerer below talks about 3 prophecies he says did not come true. Well, Those same ones except one are in the bible, so those Prophets were wrong too???? That would make the bible totally incorrect. Remember, it aint over until it is over. The third one he is talking about. I have never heard any prophecy like the one he describes. He must have gotten it out of a newspaper somewhere.
I'm not a mormon but i did live in Salt Lake for awhile. They seem like regular crischens to me, believing in as much hokey stuff as the next religion based on hallucinations of mose.


Really, how can one group go around talking about speaking serpents and burning plants in the mountains, and then insult and degrade another guy for the same thing?


Maybe he did find some gold plates with glyphs on them, the spanish found a whole lot, and the pope is looking them over right now! The sacred books and relics that werent burned were hidden, is it possible he found something and put his own spin on it? Are any religions and their stories possible?


If your god is unloving and unaccepting, maybe you are being conned.


RED
Interesting that you acknowledge Joseph Smith's prophecy of the Civil War (which did happen) only to quibble over the definition of ';all';. Nice try but no cigar. I'd be delighted to see you try again.





A temple in Independence does not preclude one in Jerusalem nor vise versa. Keep trying.
Yes, Great Britain was involved. They took the southern states side, I believe....





And also, Joseph Smith was told through revelation that IF (and I emphasize IF) he lived to be... 84, if I recall correctly, he would see the coming of the Lord. Now we all know that Joseph Smith died WAYYY before 70 so that prophecy does not even matter anymore.





I think maybe verse 2 is talking about the last days.
[Civil War]


';We have in our possession a pamphlet, published at Liverpool, in 1851.... In view of our present troubles, this prediction seems to be in progress of fulfillment, whether Joe Smith was a humbug or not.... Have we not had a prophet among us?';----- (Philadelphia Sunday Mercury after the outbreak of the Civil War. Clipping in Journal History, 5 May 1861.)





Beginning in the 1830s, LDS missionaries carried manuscript copies of the above revelation with in their missionary journeys, and ';frequently read it to their congregations in various parts of the United States'; (Roberts, p. 315). The entire revelation was printed in 1851 in Liverpool, England, in a pamphlet entitled, ';The Pearl of Great Price.'; This was a decade before the first shot of the Civil War on April 12, 1861. Thus, the prediction was made 28 years before its fulfillment, and was printed and circulated in England and in the United States at least ten years before.


Further, while speaking in Ramus, Illinois, on April 2, 1843, Joseph said: ';I prophesy, in the name of the Lord God, that the commencement of the difficulties which will cause much bloodshed previous to the coming of the Son of Man will be in South Carolina. It may probably arise through the slave question. This a voice declared to me, while I was praying earnestly on the subject, December 25th, 1832.';





Was Joseph's prophecy just a case of noting existing tensions and making obvious extrapolations? Hardly! While there had been tensions between the South and the North, including talk of secession, hardly anyone seriously thought that civil war would erupt. Americans had great faith in their nation and in democracy. In fact, there were members of the Church who were so shaken by the ';ridiculous'; nature of Joseph's civil war prophecy that they left the Church, rejecting him as a false prophet. Even if Joseph were trying to make something out of trends and currents he saw in society, the many specific details of his prophecy suggest that more than reason and guesswork were needed to be so accurate.





Now in December of 1832 there was controversy involving South Carolina and the issue of states' rights. South Carolina had advocated the doctrine of ';nullification,'; arguing that a state could nullify federal laws or taxes that they ruled to be unconstitutional. If there was federal resistance, then South Carolina said they could leave the Union. President Andrew Jackson argued against their position. With much controversy in the air, it would seem logical that Joseph be stirred to ponder the events of the day and inquire of the Lord, resulting in the revelation of Dec. 1832. But there was no reasonable expectation of war at that time, or even in 1851 when the prophecy was more widely publicized. Can anyone offer evidence from writings of American statesmen or scholars in 1832, 1843, or 1851 that make such predictions? Did other wise minds of the day foresee what Joseph saw? Neither a scholar or statesmen, the uneducated 27-year old man, Joseph Smith, saw what would happen by the spirit of revelation.





It is a fact of history that South Carolina took the initiative that led to the rebellion of the Southern States and that the war began in South Carolina. Reacting negatively to the election of Abraham Lincoln, South Carolina's leaders convened on Dec. 20, 1860 and passed an ordinance of secession. Newly elected Governor Pickins then declared ';the dissolution of the union between the state of South Carolina and the other states under the name of the United States.'; Ten other states later joined South Carolina, but she was the first to rebel. The Civil War was the bloodiest this country has ever seen, causing about 400,000 deaths. The South did enlist the aid of Great Britain and also sought help from France (Great Britain, as I recall, also encouraged France to assist the South). Later, after war had been poured out on the nations of the earth, Great Britain found herself threatened by Nazi Germany and called upon other nations of the earth for her defense. After the Civil War, international intrigues and wars grew to increasing severity, with ghastly international scenes of horror during World War I and World War II, with dozens of other wars having been fought and going on at the moment. War has always been on the earth, but the scale of destruction since the Civil War has grown sharply, and war in the past century has become increasingly multinational rather than bilateral. Truly, war has been poured out on all nations.





[Isaiah 11]


By the way, Isaiah 11 is a prophecy about many things that would occur before and after the return of Christ. To say that it is about to be fulfilled is like saying that the Second Coming of Christ is about to happen - and we stand firmly behind that prophecy. It hasn't been fulfilled yet, but in the Lord's timetable, it will happen in this era, shortly after the time of Joseph Smith, and even many Christians agree that we are in the time span in which the Second Coming is a real possibility - that the Second Coming is ';about'; to occur. Could be another 50 or 100 years, but we're still at the door of this great event.


How can Is. 11 be cited as the best example of an incorrect prophecy when there has not been sufficient time for its fulfillment but when numerous indications associated with its future fulfillment are coming to pass?





While Isaiah 11 speaks of Christ as the Branch and rod of Jesse in verses 1 to 4, it also speaks of a ';root of Jesse'; - another person also descended from Jesse - who would establish an ensign that would bring in the Gentiles and play a role in the gathering of scattered Israel (verse 10-12). This could very well be Joseph Smith. The restored Church of Jesus Christ truly is an ensign that has been sought out by many of the Gentiles and that is seeking out the scattered remnants of Israel and bringing them back into the covenants of the Lord. This part has already been fulfilled.





for 56 years and [Christ's Return] see





http://www.shields-research.org/General/鈥?/a>


http://www.lightplanet.com/response/answ鈥?/a>


http://byustudies.byu.edu/Shop/PDFSRC/3.鈥?/a>





Edit:





[Missouri Temple]


One aspect you'll need to understand is that there will be two temple built. One in Jerusalem and one in New Jerusalem. (Missouri). I'm also running out of room so here are some links:


http://en.fairmormon.org/Independence_te鈥?/a>





http://www.shields-research.org/Critics/鈥?/a>
I think when I was a mormon, the church only decussed the ones that came true or they said the ones that didn;t come true were yet to come true. Now that I am a christian a prophet or phophectis is known by how many prophecies come true if they have about a 98% rate they are considered a prophet and prophets are generally told the womb (babies sex or if a person is pregnat or not) and the tomb (death time and date) are only for God to know. Joseph smith I think had a 50% or less rate of prophecy that would be the rate of a psychic, so he was not a prophet and I may get a violation for that.
Here are a couple:





Sept 21, 1823. Joseph Smith says in the Pearl of Great Price, Joseph Smith 2:40, that Moroni told him that Isaiah 11 was ';about to be fulfilled.'; Isaiah 11:6-11 prophesies that the wolf and the lamb, the calf and the lion, etc. shall dwell in peace together, and that nothing will ';hurt or destroy,'; and that the earth shall be ';full of the knowledge of the Lord, as the waters cover the sea.';





September 1830. D%26amp;C 29:9-11. ';For the hour is nigh and the day soon at hand'; when the wicked will burn, all prophecies will be fulfilled, and Jesus will return for a thousand years.





March 1831. D%26amp;C 49:9-10. The nations of the earth shall bow to the Mormon gospel or they ';shall come down'; and ';shall be laid low of power.';
Joseph Smith was a master con man. I believe that he may have been a genius because he took an impossible premise and created a ';new'; religion.
Joe Smith is like Bob Jones, they are both too caught up with themselves, they get pleasure out of preaching the thoughts from their deluded minds, they are insane and need to be placed in an insane asylum.

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